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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 7, 2005 23:13:18 GMT -5
i bought wrestlemania 18 last summer, and one of the extras on disc 2 is the wrestlemania 6 match between hogan and the ultimate warrior. it's been ages since i've seen that match, and all i can say is...wow! people like to say that hogan needs to be carried in order to have a good match, but that wasn't true this time. hogan & warrior had a great match using 1/4 of the moves that wrestlers use today, but - in my opinion - they got more than twice the crowd reaction!
over at wrestlingepicenter.com i listened to an interview by ted dibiase. he said that anyone who says hulk hogan is not a great wrestler is wrong and should watch that wrestlemania 6 match. i couldn't agree more.
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tradewynd
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Post by tradewynd on Sept 8, 2005 10:35:28 GMT -5
Hogan is a great worker in what he does, as was Warrior. In the the old school sense that a great worker is someone who draws heat and sells tickets, he's clearly one of the best there ever was. The Sheik was a great worker in the same sense, although I've never seen a match of his that I personally liked. But he put asses in seats for a long time.
The criticism against Hogan's ringwork is that it's highly formulated, which comes from what most people see (his World Wrestling Federation TV matche)s is mostly fair criticism. Since the fans are a lot smarter to the business than they were in Hogan's era, in order to be "great" a worker needs to be able to tell a variety of stories in the ring, whereas Hogan found great success by telling the same story over and over again. When people say Hogan is not a great worker they are either judging his moveset and using Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada. etc. as the basis for what a great worker is, or not looking at his work in the proper historical context. He was clearly a great worker, although like Sheik, not everyone's bottle of sake.
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Post by Sir Auron on Sept 8, 2005 11:24:52 GMT -5
I absolutely loved this feud, its one of my favorite feuds of all time. I remember when Hogan and Warrior were left one on one at Royal Rumble 1990, and the crowd literally exploded as they went face to face for the first time ever.
And the crowd reaction at WM6 was truly special, Warrior got a huge pop, and Gorilla went on and on about how the Warrior got a huge ovation and that there were many Warrior fans there, but then Hogan came out and Jesse noted that he wouldn't even try to talk through that.
Jesse: "I'm not even gonna try to talk through this"
Gorilla: "Lets just watch"
Awesome match and feud.
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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 8, 2005 11:50:52 GMT -5
Hogan is a great worker in what he does, as was Warrior. In the the old school sense that a great worker is someone who draws heat and sells tickets, he's clearly one of the best there ever was. The Sheik was a great worker in the same sense, although I've never seen a match of his that I personally liked. But he put asses in seats for a long time. The criticism against Hogan's ringwork is that it's highly formulated, which comes from what most people see (his World Wrestling Federation TV matche)s is mostly fair criticism. Since the fans are a lot smarter to the business than they were in Hogan's era, in order to be "great" a worker needs to be able to tell a variety of stories in the ring, whereas Hogan found great success by telling the same story over and over again. When people say Hogan is not a great worker they are either judging his moveset and using Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada. etc. as the basis for what a great worker is, or not looking at his work in the proper historical context. He was clearly a great worker, although like Sheik, not everyone's bottle of sake. i've never seen a match of the sheik's, but bobby heenan called him 'the greatest heel of all time', and i respect his opinion. when it comes to workrate, i don't think anyone has anything on sayama (tiger mask #1). |
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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 8, 2005 12:08:19 GMT -5
Hogan is a great worker in what he does, as was Warrior. i don't know if i agree that warrior was a great worker, in any context. the best matches i've seen of his are against hogan & savage, and most of his others could put me to sleep. that ted dibiase interview pretty much covers how i feel about warrior, and i highly recommend it. it's downloadable. |
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tradewynd
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Post by tradewynd on Sept 8, 2005 20:59:48 GMT -5
Bobby Heenan and Jim Cornette are both very old school, and from their time in wrestling being a great worker only means that you are over. It doesn't matter what you do to get over, or how you perform, only that you put asses in seats. In that sense, no one can deny that Warrior and Sheik were were great workers.
Sayama goes far beyond being a great worker. For all intents and purposes, he invented the Japanese junior heavyweight style. The Tiger Mask Final Collection DVD set New Japan put out is required viewing for anyone who likes that style or wants to get into the business.
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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 8, 2005 22:15:30 GMT -5
Sayama goes far beyond being a great worker. For all intents and purposes, he invented the Japanese junior heavyweight style. The Tiger Mask Final Collection DVD set New Japan put out is required viewing for anyone who likes that style or wants to get into the business. tiger mask dvd?!?! where do i buy it??? |
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tradewynd
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Post by tradewynd on Sept 8, 2005 22:58:28 GMT -5
It's not a DVD, but a 6 DVD set. It recently had a price drop and goes for about $350-400ish after EMS shipping to the US. You want EMS shipping, because if airmail or seamail is "lost" so is your money. Just about any online Japanese DVD store will sell it. I think it's out of print since it came out 4 or 5 years ago so if you're set on an original that might be hard to come by, but I'm not exactly sure. The last time I ordered an original for someone who had difficulties with Japanese (about 2 years ago) it took Amazon 6 weeks to ship it because it was "hard to locate." If you don't have a problem with copies I can hook you up with it. The VQ on everything isn't perfect, but that is due to damage that was done to the original tapes in New Japan's library. Better copies do not exist anywhere. Here are the matchlists:
Disc 1:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (4/23/81)
2. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Chris Adams/Mike Masters (6/4/81)
3. Tiger Mask vs. Scorpio Sr. (8/2/81)
4. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Solar I/El Solitario (9/18/81)
5. Tiger Mask vs. Solar I (9/23/81)
6. Tiger Mask vs. Masked Hurricane (Bobby Lee) Mask Match (10/8/81)
7. Tiger Mask/Kengo Kimura vs. Negro Navarro/El Signo (10/30/81)
8. Tiger Mask vs. Gran Hamada (11/5/81)
9. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. El Canek/Super Maquina (12/1/81)
10. Tiger Mask vs. El Canek (12/8/81)
11. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (1/1/82)
12. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (1/28/82)
13. Tiger Mask vs. Brett Hart - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (2/5/82)
Disc 2:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Baby Face - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (2/9/82)
2. Tiger Mask vs. Blackman (3/12/82)
3. Tiger Mask/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Blackman/Coloso Colosetti (3/19/82)
4. Tiger Mask/Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Masked Superstar/Don Muraco/Steve Wright (3/30/82)
5. Tiger Mask/Kengo Kimura vs. Steve Wright/Blackman (3/31/82)
6. Tiger Mask vs. Steve Wright - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (4/1/82)
7. Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger (Mark "Rollerball" Rocco) - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (4/21//82)
8. Tiger Mask vs. Les Thornton - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (5/25/82)
9. Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (5/26/82)
Disc 3:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Ultraman - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (6/18/82)
2. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Ultraman/El Polaco (6/25/82)
3. Tiger Mask vs. Ultraman - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (7/6/82)
4. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (7/23/82)
5. Tiger Mask vs. Brett Hart - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (7/30/82)
6. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami/Kengo Kimura vs. Dynamite Kid/Brett Hart/Greg Valentine (7/31/82)
7. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (8/5/82)
8. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Black Tiger/Pete Roberts (8/27/82)
9. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (8/30/82)
Disc 4:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Villano III - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (9/3/82)
2. Tiger Mask vs. Pete Roberts - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (9/10/82)
3. Tiger Mask vs. Chris Adams (9/17/82)
4. Tiger Mask/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Black Tiger/Villano III (9/19/82)
5. Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (9/21/82)
6. Tiger Mask vs. Marty Jones (10/8/82)
7. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (10/26/82)
8. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - World Wrestling Federation/NWA Jr. Titles (11/4/82)
Disc 5:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - NWA Jr. Title (1/6/83)
2. Tiger Mask/El Gran Hamada/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Los Misioneros De La Muerte (Death Missionaries) - Negro Navarro/El Signo/El Texano (1/14/83)
3. Tiger Mask vs. Negro Navarro (1/20/83)
4. Tiger Mask/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Black Tiger/Jose Estrada (1/28/83)
5. Tiger Mask vs. Gran Hamada - NWA Jr. Title (2/3/83)
6. Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (2/7/83)
7. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (2/8/83)
8. Tiger Mask/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Gran Hamada/Kuniaki Kobayashi (2/10/83)
9. Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (4/21/83)
Disc 6:
1. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - NWA Jr. Title (6/2/83)
2. Tiger Mask vs. Fishman - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (6/12/83, Mexico City, Toreo de Cuatro Caminos)
3. Tiger Mask vs. Isamu Teranishi - NWA Jr. Title (7/7/83)
4. Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (7/14/83)
5. Tiger Mask/Kantaro Hoshino vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi/Isamu Teranishi (7/20/83)
6. Tiger Mask vs. El Halcon - World Wrestling Federation Jr. Title (7/29/83)
7. Tiger Mask/Osamu Kido vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi/Isamu Teranishi (8/1/83)
8. Tiger Mask vs. Isamu Teranishi - NWA Jr. Title (8/4/83)
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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 9, 2005 14:28:34 GMT -5
Bobby Heenan and Jim Cornette are both very old school, and from their time in wrestling being a great worker only means that you are over. It doesn't matter what you do to get over, or how you perform, only that you put asses in seats. In that sense, no one can deny that Warrior and Sheik were were great workers. with all due respect to heenan (i have no respect for cornette), i have a different philosophy on what makes a great worker. drawing the crowd is important - it's what pays the bills - but a good worker is someone who can tell a story in the ring, and not be 100% dependent on his or her opponent to drag a quality match of them. my opinion is that the success of the ultimate warrior was in large measure because of the decisions made in the World Wrestling Federation office, combined with the professionalism of his opponents when it came time to making him look good. i will say that i liked his gimmick & enjoyed his run, but he's not what i consider a good worker. |
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Post by Sir Auron on Sept 9, 2005 15:51:16 GMT -5
Was there ever talk about Hogan-Warrior ending in a schmoz? I really liked how Hogan had him pinned but there was no ref. Then Warrior had Hogan pinned but there was no ref. It went forth and back like that, and there was never one person who was truly in charge, although Hogan can be said to have a small upperhand. Damn, what a match.  |
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Post by Dog Fan on Sept 9, 2005 17:06:10 GMT -5
Was there ever talk about Hogan-Warrior ending in a schmoz? I really liked how Hogan had him pinned but there was no ref. Then Warrior had Hogan pinned but there was no ref. It went forth and back like that, and there was never one person who was truly in charge, although Hogan can be said to have a small upperhand. Damn, what a match. i don't think they had any other plans. vince needed another big star, and hogan probably needed to slow his schedule down a bit. unfortunately, warrior never learned how to work, and he remained highly dependent on his opponents to create a quality match. i liked the finish the way it was, because it made both of them look like a million bucks, and it gave hogan a break from carrying the torch. |
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Post by hulkamania33 on Jan 15, 2006 19:32:28 GMT -5
So what happened after WM VI? Soon he was attacked by Earthquake on the Brother Love show? What was the deal with that angle. I seem to forget
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Post by Dog Fan on Jan 16, 2006 17:32:50 GMT -5
i'm not really sure what feud came next for hogan. i know his great match with stan hansen was around that time, and i know he had a great match against perfect on SNME around that time as well
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Post by hulkamania33 on Jan 16, 2006 19:22:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I have seen both those matches. i think the one withe Perfect is very underrated.
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Post by Dog Fan on Jan 16, 2006 20:07:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I have seen both those matches. i think the one withe Perfect is very underrated. perfect owns! i loved his match against bret KOR '93. that guy could really go. |
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